Topic
ZvZ: Let's say I want to Fast Expand
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Safest way to defend your FE is getting roaches. Don't panic when your expo is attacked by lings, just make sure you have at least 3 to block the entrance to your main first. When you have more roaches, micro them to attack the lings, but try not to get surrounded.
Just be sure to sneak in a speedling into your opponent's base if you can to see what he's doing. If his entrance is covered by Roaches, sac an ovie into his base. The popular strats to go against FE Zergs are Roach timing push with +1 attack/speed, or Roach/banes if you go spines/lings heavy or quick tech to mutas. Think ahead, be responsive and counter accordingly. |
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actually, i would go with a 13gas 14pool speedling opening into an expand. because if he is going mass ling/bling, your roaches will get raped if u don't have enough numbers.
but build a Roach warrant and pump roaches out when needed. but lings are great another thing is, spread your creep quick so u are able to defend
there really isn't any other combination except for roach/ling lol unless u want to count Queen/something as a combo lol. this is kinda really sad for Zergs though, there are so few openings to pull off. |
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Dunno if my advice is very helpful but...
You say you want to FE (fast expand). A fast expand really isn't possible or necessary in ZvZ. I feel in ZvZs I can win at any moment or loose at any moment. IMO a FE opens you up to an unnecessary level of risk. |
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Thanks for your replies guys, I've been trying to apply them.
On the contrary, if you hold off an FE, you're way ahead of your opponent, especially if he went all in with his lingbling. Baneling wars gets tiresome sometimes, so I'm trying to learn something new for ZvZ. |
actually, i would go with a 13gas 14pool speedling opening into an expand. because if he is going mass ling/bling, your roaches will get raped if u don't have enough numbers. I find roaches the BEST way to counter zerglings. Even if you have much smaller number of roaches to defend lings. Um what do you mean there isn't any other combination except for roach and lings? Do you mean against speedling rush in ZvZ or in the whole game in general? Thanks for your replies guys, I've been trying to apply them.You say you want to FE (fast expand). A fast expand really isn't possible or necessary in ZvZ. I feel in ZvZs I can win at any moment or loose at any moment. IMO a FE opens you up to an unnecessary level of risk. And I totally agree with you, if you can expand, and be able to defend it, you have better economy, and you can tech up to muta as soon as their rush fails. |
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it sorta depends on the map and the spawn positions. generally if i spawn close air positions on a map like temple or meta I can go FE because I can see my opponent's opening and deviate if needed (ie any all ins will be scouted). if you dont scout your opponent in time 15hatch is a little bit of a dice roll depending how your opponent opened
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Watched a few gsl matches last night with some ZvZ where they spawned right next to each other on metaopolis I believe and they both opened with fast expos.
I think theres a certain trick to be able to holding it off which I found kinda surprising. |
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hatch first play is really ballsy and incredibly dangerous especially when players i've found are favouring earlier pools in fear of the 6 pool....
If someone blindly drops an early pool and scouts your hatch first he'll just go mass ling, deny your expansion and contain you on one base when he's free to expand putting you incredibly far behind, with his extra queen injects and minerals worth of zerglings, you can't possibly keep up with his production cycles until your hatch is down, which might already be too late. It'd really depend on the map, if you're an insane distance from your opponent and you think you can get away with it. e.g Taldarim altars or something like that I'd more than likely FE, however on maps like metal with even far spawn position being incredibly close for lings and a 66% chance of being in close spawn positions or maps with one possible spawn position I'd say straight up hatch before pool is too risky simply because the chance of a mass speedling push is just far too high...... |
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I think it IS possible with either a very very large map or fast roach + spines and roach blocking the ramp.
Just very easy to punish on most maps... |
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the 14 hatch counters every zerg's strategies except the spine crawler rush. imagine it this way. he has 1 hatch while u have 2. you will have more lings than him but he will have the tech advantage( earlier banes or roaches ) so, micro is crucial here.Do not hesitate to put down 1-2 spine crawlers at your natural.Recently I've played a game with a fren..he went baneling bust and I just sacrificed my natural while teching to mutas and gained map control.
14 hatch vs banelings pressure is similar to 14 hatch vs a 4-5rax marine cheese. |
the 14 hatch counters every zerg's strategies except the spine crawler rush. imagine it this way. he has 1 hatch while u have 2. you will have more lings than him but he will have the tech advantage( earlier banes or roaches ) so, micro is crucial here.Do not hesitate to put down 1-2 spine crawlers at your natural.Recently I've played a game with a fren..he went baneling bust and I just sacrificed my natural while teching to mutas and gained map control. Yeah, FE can work against most builds (map dependant), but surviving against early pressure (especially mass speedling or ling/bling) is very micro intensive, moreso for the defender than the attacker I think, so I think if a player isn't comfortable defending his early expand it's not necessarily needed in lower leagues |
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Anyway to update, apparently, 1-base Zerg really (note emphasis: really) puts you behind now because once infestors come out, he's in a major lead. Infestors are the bomb in ZvZ these days.
Out of topic: I find it amazing how a simple change on a single spell also dramatically changes the entire meta-game of ZvZ. Which is probably why Blizz never rush out with changes in the first place. |
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Edited by Jimmy on 3/23/11 9:04 PM (PDT)
I never suspected this to happen in ZvZ too. The first I heard about it was through Joshboy, and I was skeptical at first. But know that I've had a good think about it. It makes a lot of sense. I think this may lead to more fun games in ZvZ. Infester play and micro are incredible to see. And seeing them more is good. :D |
I agree, I used to hate ZvZ because it was a match based on "X Roaches > Y Roaches", now it's going to be more micro related. It's not good for me though.. I'm all about the macro... I "A-Walk" my units most of the time lol. The thought of microing makes me sad =( |
I agree, I used to hate ZvZ because it was a match based on "X Roaches > Y Roaches", now it's going to be more micro related. Think you just contradicted yourself there. |
