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How do you hold a an FE in ZvZ against 2 hatch speedling/baneling on maps with large ramps/entrances eg. Scrap and Taldarim. Its not a problem with small chokes as i can block with 2 queens.

I dont like baneling builds so are there any other ways to hold it off?

you have to roll the dice that they don't do a build that counters FE. otherwise dont FE

As Fadejoshnoy said you have to roll the dice if you want to FE.

It's actually a good idea of your opponents are doing that, they're making good use of the terrain.

FE puts a lot of your investment in no-mans-land...but you have to take your punishment.

Here's two alternate ideas.

1) you can fast build roaches, they can block ramps
2) make your second hatchery inside your primary cluster, and expand a little later when you're on the offensive. This way you have even more production early on than a fast expand because you're not spending it on drones for the expand, and it can get to work producing military units straight away.

Here's two alternate ideas.

1) you can fast build roaches, they can block ramps
2) make your second hatchery inside your primary cluster, and expand a little later when you're on the offensive. This way you have even more production early on than a fast expand because you're not spending it on drones for the expand, and it can get to work producing military units straight away.

Doesn't work on maps like scrap and taldarim, ramp/entrance will be too wide. Plus, i'm not talking about 1 base sling/bane from a 14gas/14pool, which i can hold even with an FE as long as the ramp is small enough for 2 queens to block.

Macro hatch is good except 1 base Z with queens cannot really produce from 2 hatches off one base except for mass lings.

I know FEing is never 100% safe, but 2 hatch sling/baneling seems to completely crush it.

I can't offer advice for Scrap, because I go 14/14 bling/sling all-in all the time and win 90% of the time. And sometimes my opponent doesn't even FE. If he goes 1-base roach and tries to block the cracks between his mineral fields with roaches (plus the usual pool/warren sim city), juz send zerglings first in to kill one roach and you can stream banelings into his drones from that gap. I am not saying 14/14 is the best build on Scrap, because if u watch GSL, often you will see BOTH zerg players FE-ing on scrap. So there must be some way to hold but I definitely am not sure about it. I think 14/14 is still very decent on this map tho, no matter what.

On Tal'Darim Altar, I have held 14/14 bling/sling a few times and i think its a sucky build on this map. I remember he even killed half my drones and what I did was all-in roach and he just died like that. It is possible to hold baneling/sling with roaches + spines, no problem, because the map is quite huge. Just don't spread creep at all if you scout baneling nest and concentrate on injects, because banelings are faster on creep. Also, keep a spine crawler at your main as well to mess up zergling AI, or they will kill your drones pretty easily. Maintain decent roach spread as well, because he cannot have enuff zerglings to outright kill your roaches as he made banes, so leave some at your main and leave some at your nat.

The problem build on Tal'Darim Altar is in-base hatch into mass speedlings. I have been using this almost all the time now and have similar 90% win rate. And no, my opponent doesnt have to FE for me to win. I've beaten fast lair roaches with this build very often as well. I lose all my zerglings, but i have a small 8-10 control group of zerglings sniping drones while my other zerglings are causing mayhem, so he loses all his drones. The only way I believe you can defeat it is to go lair expand and get quick burrowed banelings in your mineral line, so if he streams his zerglings in u unburrow, kill all of them, and do an immediate roach all-in which should definitely kill him.

Of course, 1-base builds in zvz are difficult to guess and scout (he could be going 1-base muta rite?) so I would say doing a 1-base yourself gives you an advantage rather than FE in ZvZ in general. I do sometimes go 15hatch to mix things up, but it is really just risky and gives map control to someone going 14/14 or lower.

05/19/2011 05:36 PMPosted by dKiWi

On Tal'Darim Altar, I have held 14/14 bling/sling a few times and i think its a sucky build on this map

I've gotten a lot of free wins doing that build on tal darim in zvz, so many zergs think they can hatch first cause it's a big map, without thinking about the lack of ramp between main and nat

Macro hatch is good except 1 base Z with queens cannot really produce from 2 hatches off one base except for mass lings.

Not quite true, it's also useful for mass banes, and you can regroup and build queens quickly in the case of a quick void ray or banshee. I don't recommend it if you plan to go mass roach, roach hydra, or anything like that. But if you consider the terrain on maps with wide ramps they are often large maps where speedy units like zerglings are more important than slower moving heavier units it might be exactly what you need.

05/19/2011 08:18 AMPosted by ILoveCoffee

Macro hatch is good except 1 base Z with queens cannot really produce from 2 hatches off one base except for mass lings.

As Quirriff said its not quite true. Early game yes. This is because your armies and your foes aren't very big yet, and you don't need that many larvae or production facilities to create the force you need to hold on.

Mid-to-late game you do need a second base to support it since armies are larger and more dangerous because of upgrades and high-tech units eg. BL's, Infesters, Mutas etc.

For you question on how to avoid losing your expo to sling+bling, I suggest your try 14 Hatch 14 or 15 pool.

Here's the build on liquidpedia:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/14_Hatch_14_Pool

05/19/2011 10:06 PMPosted by Jimmy

As Quirriff said its not quite true. Early game yes. This is because your armies and your foes aren't very big yet, and you don't need that many larvae or production facilities to create the force you need to hold on.

I did say only for mass zergling/baneling which is the problem is have now. They build 2 hatches, sometimes at thier nat and cut drones and mass up for a big push with 8-10 banes which us very difficult to stop on maps with large entrances to your nat.

Maps with small chokes it doesn't work and i can hold it most of the time without much losses.

For you question on how to avoid losing your expo to sling+bling, I suggest your try 14 Hatch 14 or 15 pool.

Here's the build on liquidpedia:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/14_Hatch_14_Pool

This build is the one i use but i skip gas since speed wont be up in time for the baneling attack and the extra minerals you get is better used for some spines.