Topic
New to starcraft and Zerg
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hey guys im a new player who finds that i like the style that zerg play with i have played enough games to know how to get things but i don't know what match ups i need to beat other units. if any one would like to help me by playing some games with me and just give general advice that would be great, also i have problems defending with zerg, if i get rushed i really got nothing to defend
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Edited by Serenity on 9/1/11 1:41 AM (PDT)
a good place to llok for advice is in the channel PRACBUD
just go to join channel and type that in and it should get you there just ask your questions there and you should be able to get some good answers. its also a good place to find practice matches. |
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Another thing u can do is go out and get some of the GT AI maps. While the ai in them still have problems like not knowing how to abuse the terrain and overreacting to harassment, its as close as u can get when u can't find a person to practice with
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I can tell you this:
Neither Hydras nor Mutas work against a proper Terran opponent. Banes are mostly useless against Protoss. And Zerg vs. Zerg is a joke. |
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Edited by Derelith on 9/2/11 11:57 PM (PDT)
Unless they're coming out of overlords. I can win engagements with overlords dropping banelings that I never would have expected to win otherwise. Seriously, In game I'm like: "Oh crap, I can't beat that incoming ball!!! D: Oh well, I'm forced to engage anyway *drops banes* *enemy army crumbles* *O_O* That tactic is one of two methods to kill a maxed protoss deathball. (The other being infestors) EDIT: Is that what you meant by "mostly?" |
Banes against Protoss are like Mutas against Terran. It's only effective if the opponent doesn't do the build that counters yours. And what kind of Terran doesn't produce marines? That said, the Banes do have some uses. 1. Against the mineral line (Response: WTF? Probez aren't even bio how the **** can a few banez **** up my probez?) 2. Against High Templar (Response: OMG High Templar so slow storm kills my own units banes don't OP OP) 3. Against Dark Templar stupid enough to attack them (Response: ****ing Dark Templar ****ing auto attacked those ****ing banez they shouldn't kill invi units OP OP) But these are rare, of course. And Banes are never a good counter against any mineral dump units. |
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Edited by Derelith on 9/3/11 1:38 AM (PDT)
You forgot this:
Against a protoss deathball. I have (No joke) crushed large protoss armies with banelings supprted by lings and roaches. Of course, the above unit comp does have a severe drawback - little to no anti air. Oh, and yeah, I always like the sound of acid-drowned probes >:D 1. Against the mineral line(Response: WTF? Probez aren't even bio how the **** can a few banez **** up my probez?) lol |
Indeed. I usually go mutas, but if I need anti-air quick, only then will I go Hydras.
When micro'ed well, and upgraded properly, the roaches can actually hold their own against a lot of units, short of an Immortal. In the last game I won against toss, which was this season but a long time ago, I simply massed mutas for harassment and anti-air, then pumped out a carpet of roaches to mop up anything my mutas can't take down. |
MVP
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Stop telling people this, please. I almost cried the first time I saw banelings raining onto my Stalkers, Sentries, Colossi etc. I don't want to feel the pain again. Then again, I haven't quite gotten around to doing such a style as Zerg. I need to try it some time. I'll be the one to confirm that this does work.
[TCP]Mathmick - Melee Map Design http://sea.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/135123519 - Map List (Testers needed for first videos!) http://sea.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/140574065 - Typhon Quarry now available with GT AI! Explosions are awesome. I think I used this line before... |
It works but you need to engage pretty much perfectly or you will lose like some bronze league and just get rolled. The alternative is ling/infestor, NP is really good against collossi, void rays and archons but just as before, you need pretty clutch control. |
Really? Even stalker/collossus? Whenever I try that I seem to get rolled. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. :/ Do you need like, a massive concave or something?
So did I. Except I was on the winning side. :p |
if you can't find anyone to practice with then the challenge mission ("for the swarm" i think...) teaches the basic counters vs protoss and the terran one teaches what terran units are good against your zerg units... |
if you can't find anyone to practice with then the challenge mission ("for the swarm" i think...)teaches the basic counters vs protoss and the terran one teaches what terran units are good against your zerg units... Those will help you memorise what unit combos are good vs some unit combos, but it's really a copy of the table of counters in the help menu. Keep those basic counters in mind, and you should be able to hold your own for a while untill your opponents decide to go for actual compositions, which you need your own complex composition for. |
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Edited by tFcZFalcone on 9/4/11 8:24 AM (PDT)
Really? Even stalker/collossus? Whenever I try that I seem to get rolled. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. :/ Do you need like, a massive concave or something? You need all roaches capable of firing, but micro them enough that you don't overkill an enemy unit. In addition, the standard "burrow orange roaches" apply. Upgrades help a lot. Did this once, with satisfying results, although since I'm in Silver, my micro is a little too limited to keep this up. You might have a better chance. How many shots does it take to down a stalker? Roaches are not loved enough by Blizzard to have Terran's smart no-overkill AI, and if you have seven roaches against four marines, you can bet one of those marines will last longer than it should. Long enough to get another shot. Say it takes X roaches to one shot a stalker. And you have a lot of X. Say, Y. Group Y into plenty of X's. Instead of controlling Y as one and having them fire as one, control, move, position Y as one, but fire them against individual stalkers as X. The result is that instead of wasting precious Roach saliva, you get more kills per 'wave' of shot. And here are the difficulties: > Adjusting X dynamically since obviously, you WILL have some losses. The key here is to do the greatest amount of damage per attack, since stalkers actually do pathetic damage one on one, and cost a LOT more. > It is given that no matter how hard you try, the more the numbers increase, the less effective this becomes. 10 roaches vs 10 stalkers is already difficult. Double the number, and you need to be a korean. Positioning here is key, but never move your roaches so as to disturb their already slow rate of fire. In light of that information, the initial positioning is the most important and the easiest to pull off. Surrounding them with a thin circle of roaches is much better than having a bunch in front that is so thick, not all can fire. > Though micro intensive, you should never be caught in a position where the opponent's army is a dead counter to yours. I'm just saying, the roaches are here, the stalkers are here, it's a little late for a tech switch, might as well put those roaches to good use while your mutas come out. I actually won against some dude who went Stalker Colossi using mass roaches. I had mutas of course, but the roaches were the main ground pounder. Also, he stepped upon my roaches. His stalker colossi army was above my burrowed roaches. Unburrow, then micro, then muta / ling whatever was left. Mass stalks (below critical mass) only have the advantage when they can fire before you can. Or my opponent just sucked eggs for a living. This advice is not applicable to Terran, because any losses THEY incur will quickly be negated by MULEs. |
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I know very well the "wasted shots" thing on roaches, and is why I generally use speedling styles instead. It's just always irritated me, particularly vs marines.
Thanks for thinking so :). But even for a diamond of my level, my micro is still pretty sloppy. I think I may be able to pull off that roach micro you mentioned though.
It will take exactly 11 shots for a 0-0 roach to kill a 0-0 stalker. (1 armour on stalkers' life) So if I have 10 roaches vs 10 stalkers (sure, that exact number is unlikely, but this is still noteworthy) I think it should be relatively simple if you have the positioning and roach speed. Focus 1 round of attacks on 1 stalker. Deselect a roach. Target another stalker with remaining roaches. ( The first stalker will now be dead from the last roach's attack) Deselect another roach, and tell the first roach to target the 2nd stalker. Target another stalker with remaining roaches. Deselect another roach, and tell the remaining to target yet another stalker. Now box select the first 3 roaches and target the weak stalker. Rinse and repeat with remaining cycle, and not a single roach will have a wasted attack. With some practice, it should be possible to pull that off. If only my mouse precision were better. :( That is however, assuming that the protoss never kills a roach. This may be able to be helped with burrow to save roaches, and then recalculate the number of attacks needed to kill a weakened stalker. I suppose that it will require a quick-thinking mathmatic brain to do that on the fly with other numbers of units. Since you need to recalculate all deselections, and take upgrades into account. I certainly can't :D. My evening brain is thinking too hard...
I'm usually hesitant to use burrowed roaches against protoss for anything besides healing, since most protoss players bring 1 observer with their army, particularly if they know about burrow. Besides, if I am going to try to do burrow trickery, then I'd use banelings. much more satisfying, and much more likely to completely annihilate an army. Beyond the first unburrow, he will likely have an observer, so then I would resort to dropping the banes. In general, roaches just aren't my style.
Well, the MULES are not really gonna help that much if the entire army got destroyed at once. The MULES allow quicker mining, but not fast reinforcing. If, as a zerg player, I make a cost effective trade at any point, I can make one surge of units most of the time, and go kill the terran. This, however, is not what I do when I am still on three bases or less, at which point I know that he will not be atacking me anytime soon, so I know I am safe to make a bunch of drones at once. That is the all imortant thought process of a zerg player. "KILL ARMY. AQUIRE DRONES. KILL ANOTHER ARMY. AQUIRE MOAR DRONES." But once I make ONE good exchange in the late game, He'll die. He simply cannot reinforce quickly enough. |
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Edited by tFcZFalcone on 9/5/11 6:28 PM (PDT)
Besides, if I am going to try to do burrow trickery, then I'd use banelings. much more satisfying, and much more likely to completely annihilate an army. Against a Stalker army? Banes do some really pathetic damage, I think. But once I make ONE good exchange in the late game, He'll die. He simply cannot reinforce quickly enough. At late game. The problem, or at least, my problem, is early game. 4 rax marine pressure. Hellion harass. Marine SCV all in. Bunker rush. These things are almost free, since their cost and losses can be covered by MULEs while the Terran safely techs up to banshees or Siege tanks. Then the secondary push usually kills me. I feel as though even if I repel the initial attack, our resources, or at least, our collection rate is more or less even, and just one mistake on my part (make more drones than needed, or too many units), and he can pull ahead. Take this match I had against a Terran, one of the few I won. I went for speedling expo, since I reasoned that the bases were fairly wide apart, and I made banes for good measure. He got MM for harass or early pressure, and kept doing it. Of course, I eventually ran out of lings to use for banes, I eventually lost all my drones in my nat, my Spine was eventually taken down. How did I win? He said "Zerg early expo so imba. GG." Then he quit. He still had units, and were still training some more, while I'm stuck either trying to make more lings, or make more drones. I think I managed to produce a pair of mutas, not enough to raid his base. Had he pushed just one more time I would've lost. Or if he traded his resources needed for the Marauder for a siege tank. Never went early expo since then. |
Well, you would be extremely surprised :).
Believe it or not, doing any of those DOES delay his tech compared to just going straight for it. The exception to this is when the only pressure he does is with a bunker and 1 or 2 marines. No more. You see, terran teching is actually delayed by any deviation from the standard production mode whatsoever. eg: He does the standard 4 hellion opener. That means that his additional barracks are delayed in the rush for the hellions, and his tank production is delayed since the factory is occupied doing something else. The same buildings that are used to create the early pressure are also used for straight army production. This can be comparable to zerg having to choose between army or drones. Terran has to choose between harrasment OR army. Scv production is of course, supplemented in both these unit type production. Just like zerg cannot make drones AND army at once effectively, terran cannot produce harrassment units and make an army at the same time as effectively. It doesn't sound like much, but it does actually matter.
That guy was either trying to make a statement, or was a complete moron. Maybe both... Anyway, I'd need to see the replay to see what caused you to lose that game (well, you won, but you know what I mean). btw, IMO, a speedling expand is a delayed expo to me by comparison to most expand builds. At least in TvZ. Good speedling production should have stopped him dead in his tracks, and the banelings should have just been overkill. Furthermore, MULES do not negate terran mineral losses in units. MULES put terran on par with the other races, and this has been proven many times. I could also say that it doesn't matter if zerg loses a whole army. Spawn larva will negate it. It doesn't matter if the protoss was sloppy on getting the upgrade or w/e. Just chrono the building to death. MULES do not negate anything. In fact, they are the worst macro mechanic IMO. |
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Edited by tFcZFalcone on 9/6/11 7:42 PM (PDT)
Yeah, @20, it does come in later than, say, the just as risky 14hatch 14 pool stuff. The build order however, or at least the ones I've seen and used, has no early units whatsoever except for a pair of lings and a queen.
Where should I upload that replay? I know I have an account at replay sharing site somewhere... hmmm. Anyway, I watched the replay again. He actually killed my main! O.o Only a handful of mutas saved the day. That guy was either trying to make a statement, or was a complete moron. Maybe both... Correction, he actually said "Stupid zerg early expo" or something to that effect. EDIT: SC2 Replayed, for some reason, cannot upload my replay. Hmmm |
Banes against Protoss are like Mutas against Terran. It's only effective if the opponent doesn't do the build that counters yours. And what kind of Terran doesn't produce marines? omgwtfbbq are you #!@&ing kidding me? Marines counter mutas the same way they counter banelings, only if the zerg fails at life, lolz |
