StarCraft® II

04/25/2012 01:31 AMPosted by Mossie

As a Zerg, how can you pressure a Terran in the early stages when you are fast expanding?

Camp a few lings outside his base and dont let him expand for a bit. Though usually a zerg FE means that you are delaying any chance for pressure to unleash better harassment later in the game (e.g. mutalisks to force turtling, infested terrans for teh lulz and speedlings to keep them on 1-2 base max)

Muex suggested that early pressure can be used to force the Terran out so you can see the army composition. When I say "As a Zerg, how can you pressure a Terran in the early stages when you are fast expanding?" I mean "As a Zerg, how can you pressure a Terran ENOUGH for them to reveal their army."

04/25/2012 02:18 AMPosted by Noxious

"As a Zerg, how can you pressure a Terran ENOUGH for them to reveal their army."

8 banelings banging on their door followed by 16 speedlings usually does the trick...

You are dead if they are getting hellions though =D

04/25/2012 02:17 AMPosted by mGGMueX

The response to hellion drop is similar to that for banshees, just keep some stalkers at the mineral line

That is one of the reasons people think Roaches and Hydralisks should swap tiers (with the appropriate nerf/buffs). Hydralisks can then assume the role off fending off multiple harassment options, like the Stalker.

04/25/2012 02:24 AMPosted by SiopaoAsado

"As a Zerg, how can you pressure a Terran ENOUGH for them to reveal their army."

8 banelings banging on their door followed by 16 speedlings usually does the trick...

You are dead if they are getting hellions though =D

haha, that is a good for a killing blow. But if you fast expand you should be droning up. Big investment in banelings early on just to see their army/tech D:

Pretty good discussion going on thus far.
and let me stress that this is just a discussion of a hypothetical thing. There's no good or bad here, just talk and think.

I disagree slightly with each race needing a neutral/light/armor to start, in fact, that's one of the reason this thread started between me and my friends. I hate see each race having to get roughly same things to be balanced.... There's no deny that Hydra is one of Zerg's most iconic unit, and for that, I was hoping its role wont be taken by the roach.

as of now, Roaches are pretty good, awesome. however, that is one of the reasons why Hydras never becomes too core early on.

For it to work of course, the Hydra will probably need to be re-balanced a little, but I aint going into that right now.

Mid game and on, there's no influences.
so it is all early game talk here.

Early game, the zerg would have lost a tanking unit. but given a high DPS range attacker that can shoot up. (but in early game, shooting up aint too important) So the main balance exchange here really can you make enough hydras.

I personally think it can be done and the increased DPS can create pretty interesting strategies. and perhaps allow the zerg to have more options rather than needing to early expand to stay competitive mid game.

Guess we zergs understand each other well. Non-zergs won't understand those agony. I know those problems can be solved with better injection, better micro and safe guard measures, but many of us are not good enough to deal with those. The skill curve is really deep for we noobs.

For hydras I had similar thoughts before - why can't they keep at tier 1 like sc1? Life will be easier for zergs. But that said, I don't think hydras or roaches should get any buffs. It's not necessary. On the other hand, why can't zergs have more choice of units to choose from? It doesn't matter whether roach is in tier 1 and tier 2. The thought of something being tier 2 should be better and more powerful is the idea of high wisdom race, not zerggy zergs.

Drawing on that, why can't we have both hydras and roaches on tier 1 too? If you keep the hydra cost as is, you won't have many of them anyway. If you argue that will shut down protoss phoenix or void play, i would say why don't you mix with other units? Also, remember someone who didn't put down a hydralisk den still can't produce anything straight away. He will still get harassed for quite some time unless he's expecting air.

Speaking of queens, I believe a good player usually leave no energy on their queens because of efficient injections and creep spread. So most of the time they got finished quickly without transfusion. And the bad thing is you can't rapidly replenish them like other larva units. So let's say you have 4-5 queens with little energy and 4 or 5 phoenix come it usually means death because the queens are all scattered and got picked off one by one. Queens are really good against voids though - they are better than hydras if you just try them out.

And the talk about light/light/armored for tier 1 is invalid. Blizzard shows us many times that races are not balanced that way, but overall. So this argument also points out that the situation as is, is balanced.

Here again, thus, mind you, we zergs are not talking about balancing, but the ease of life, and to find somebody who understand our hardship.

Here are some changes I have thought about to help with this issue. But since I did not give them serious thoughts, please don't sneer at them okay?

1. Give ground range attack to queens. If they can also help defend a little better along with lings, we won't mind to get a few more of them, right? DPS, dmg etc. can remain low. Since it's not low cost and not low supply and not high speed and generally not massable, it shouldn't be too much a problem.

2. Give infestors a slow, low dmg range attack. So although they aren't doing as magnificent as hydras, you can use infested terran with frugal to help a bit and hold a bit. Even if the spore crawlers are out of range, queens are not within reach you still have an almost must get unit that can buy a bit of time. Now if they go air and you went infestors you die 90% of the time. Getting spine takes too long.

3. Make spine a bit faster and give me back my favourite scourge. If you don't like the idea of hydras being early op and infestors being mid game op (as I expect someone would say), give me back scourge so that I can transit to mutas when necessary. Our anti-air ground force are just too ineffective. Mass stim marines have a good chance to kill voids. Mass hydras almost have none. If you are afraid of mutas being too early, just add one more building in order to make mutas, that would solve the problem completely.

OK. That's all for my bs tonight. It's my birthday today so let me keep this one post at peace alright? Thanks for reading.

First of all

04/25/2012 09:34 AMPosted by Greydancer

It's my birthday today so let me keep this one post at peace alright?

HAPPY BIRTHDAY! =D

04/25/2012 09:34 AMPosted by Greydancer

I know those problems can be solved with better injection, better micro and safe guard measures, but many of us are not good enough to deal with those. The skill curve is really deep for we noobs.

iI know, right?? They think Zerg macro is just a piece of cake...it's not unfortunately. Protoss Chrono and Terran mules are spammable. Injects are not.

Also, no other race (but Zerg) requires you to spread peanut butter allover the map just to make your units walk faster =D

How about if queens are allowed to spawn 3 creep tumors only?? (like vulture spider mines) That way Queen's SP wont be divided between creep spread and larva inject

And the talk about light/light/armored for tier 1 is invalid. Blizzard shows us many times that races are not balanced that way, but overall. So this argument also points out that the situation as is, is balanced.

Excuse me but it is completely valid: You are going to never see any stalkers or marauders in openers vs Zerg. And at the same time, many more hellion rushes, as well as zealot/sentry compositions. Early game is going to be both incredibly boring and imbalanced. Blizzard does in fact care about that.

Here again, thus, mind you, we zergs are not talking about balancing, but the ease of life, and to find somebody who understand our hardship.

Please tell me what exactly makes life hard with the hydra as is? All I hear are first world problems type hardships:
~I don't see enough of the iconic unit *cry*.
~I have trouble versus air rushes because i don't make an early evo*cry*.

The 'hardships' of zerg for low level players are keeping up the apm-dependent the mechanical skills of injects, creep spread, etc.
Not having Anti air is a pathetic excuse, if you have sufficient map/opponent awareness, you'll be prepared for it

04/25/2012 06:57 PMPosted by ArtVandelay

Please tell me what exactly makes life hard with the hydra as is?

The hardship for hydras they are 80 health units which moves like snails that costs 100M 50G.

Surely you see what the problem is dont you??

I do see the problem, but more importantly I see you all generalising the problem of 'hydra is crap' to 'zerg is hard' without due cause.

If you feel you can't use it cost efficiently, then by all means don't use it, but don't extend this to say it is a problem of your race... again I ask, what is hard about a zerg player because of this?

The hydra is a niche unit, as compared to being a staple unit from Broodwar. This is the same as the reaper, same as the dark templar, get over the nostalgic hissy fits and move on.

04/25/2012 08:41 PMPosted by ArtVandelay

'hydra is crap' to 'zerg is crap' without due cause.

whoops! I think you are going too far ahead with that vandy =D Majority of us said. "Zerg has issues". Not that it is crap.

As you know, late-game Zerg is very effective. The problem is getting there =D Zerg scouting is hard because it can be easily denied by marines/stalkers.

But at the same time, scouting is important so we would know if we drone hard or make units. We cant just twiddle our thumbs waiting for the OL to see something yeah??

Most of the time, I usually run out of patience and drone-hard/expand. Then my OL sees hellions coming/getting made...oops! not enough time to make units =D Dead Siopao!

Other times, I feel he is mining too much gas so I make units to repel. But when my OL get's there, its then I just see that it's just a noob player who mined gas for the kicks of it...he is actually turtling/expand =D At that point I spent too much resource on army, my expos get delayed. Dead Siopao!

See what I mean here?? Terran can safely 1base. Protoss can safely expand earlygame (forge-fast expand is really effective against zerg...I urge protoss players to use it). But Zerg...early and midgame there are always risks when expanding...and not just risks because we are noobs but deadly ones (like drops/banshees/phoenixharrass/voids) because we cannot see them fast enough.

The problem I see with you, ArtVandelay, is that you're complaining about people whining about how the Hydralisk sucks compared to BW. Why the hell are you being so negative to the Hydralisk and not trying to fix it then?

We are complaining because it might as well not be there. Zerg already has enough units to fill its role. The problem? We don't want the Hydralisk to get cut in an expansion. Its a flippin' expansion! Expansions are for new campaigns and new everything, really. They don't cut stuff, they add stuff to make the game more complex and interesting. Something you'll play longer because of its expansion.

This might just be me, but that's what I think anyway. What Blizzard needs to do is find a part of Zerg that has a gaping hole in it and modify the Hydralisk to fill that hole. Or for nostalgic fans, keep the Hydralisk as the heavy hitter/anti air/massable ground unit, and change other Zerg units to fit that hole so that the Hydralisk doesn't become obsolete.

Although Hydralisks are terrible situational units they have decent DPS so they are nowhere near useless, especially against Protoss Air and Gateway units. Getting Range for Hydralisks negates the effect forcefield has on them when up against Stalkers. Once your opponent gets Tier 3 you're in trouble though :P

04/25/2012 08:41 PMPosted by ArtVandelay

The hydra is a niche unit, as compared to being a staple unit from Broodwar.

This. If you believe Hydras should be the core of your army like in Broodwar then you have to change your mindset. Just because something is expensive doesn't particularly mean it is more useful then a cheaper counterpart.

It's much better to focus on your Tier 1 unit the Queen to defend air rushes.
Queens are amazing Anti-Air defenders and they only cost minerals. The downside of their great Anti-Air capabilities is their mobility off of creep. They aren't designed to be assault units, but rather as the keepers and defenders of your Hive Cluster and Brood.

Build an extra Queen or two next time you play. Not only for the creep spread but also for the very handy spell Transfusion. You can tranfuse Spore Crawlers which is pretty sick if you ask me. You can transuse anything in the Zerg arsenal since everything is biological

1. Give ground range attack to queens. If they can also help defend a little better along with lings, we won't mind to get a few more of them, right? DPS, dmg etc. can remain low. Since it's not low cost and not low supply and not high speed and generally not massable, it shouldn't be too much a problem.

They already have a Ranged attack (check next time you upgrade the Range Attack Upgrade) It is quite short though (only three I believe)
What do you mean they're not low cost and supply? They cost only 25 minerals more then a Stalker, the same supply and no gas. I do see where you are coming from though. They are quite hard to mass efficiently, very slow off creep and have a very short range.

I lol'd when I realised I could fit 4 Queens into one Overlord.

04/25/2012 11:13 PMPosted by Gaffer

The problem I see with you, ArtVandelay, is that you're complaining about people whining about how the Hydralisk sucks compared to BW. Why the hell are you being so negative to the Hydralisk and not trying to fix it then?

Err, what?

Its actually all of you zerg players that are being negative. There is nothing to fix about the hydralisk in terms of balance. Their 'problem' - if you can even call it that - is that they're niche. But so are other units, for other races. The only reason they get harped on about the most is because in BW they had a lot of use. Well boohoo, this isn't brood war...

I have suggested ways to go about making them more attractive to use, in a manner that reflects both the blizzard design philsophy of skill curve and unit uniqueness.

I have also been highly critical of all the suggestions that are really generic buffs - more hp, etc- because giving it an across-the-board buff goes against design and isn't warranted (since they aren't under powered, they're only under used)

I do kind of think that for their cost Hydralisks have too few Hit Points.
But that's just me. It doesn't really matters at my level of play anyway though.

Maybe I'm just biased in the fact that I like Hydralisks and the way they attack :D

I think Zerg is stronger with curent tech tree.

04/25/2012 11:13 PMPosted by Gaffer

This might just be me, but that's what I think anyway.

Nope not just you <raises hand!>

Expansions are supposed to expand (get it?) the current game. Hence...if we go by what an expansion really means...

- Carriers wont be removed
- Mothership wont be removed
- Thor wont be removed
- Reapers wont be removed
- Overseers wont be removed
- Terran and Zerg will have a super unit which is limited to 1 (just like Protoss' Mothership)
- New units for all races

See that list there? Those are the tentative things that will happen in HotS. The problem is...it doesnt look like an expansion =D It looks like a sequel to me =D like "Starcraft 2 part 2! Heart of the Swarm!"

And about the hydra?? Just admit it guys, hydra has problems =D It's DPS is so great you just has to have it! But will it live even 10 sec in the battlefield??

People saying that the Hydralisk is a niche unit, as are others. There is the Battlecruiser, Carrier, Reaper, perahaps the Raven and Ultralisk. They are very situational, but units like the Battlecruiser, Carrier and Hydralisk out right suck at doing a good job cost efficiently.

Hydralisks do need a fix, but should not be cut. I cannot stress enough how I hate units being cut in expansions. Hydralisks can defend air easily... get Queens. Hydralisks can be DPS machines behind Roaches... just get more Zerglings, your expensive Hydralisks will die because some of the most common mid-late game units are ones that die damn good splash damage.

I like the Hydralisk as a glass cannon, but it can't even escape a battle. They are just down-right cost-inefficient. Many other Zerg units can do just as good if not slightly worse than the Hydralisk but cost less or are easier massed.

04/25/2012 02:18 AMPosted by Noxious

Muex suggested that early pressure can be used to force the Terran out so you can see the army composition. When I say "As a Zerg, how can you pressure a Terran in the early stages when you are fast expanding?" I mean "As a Zerg, how can you pressure a Terran ENOUGH for them to reveal their army."

You can do that same thing I mentioned doing with a zealot but with 2-4 zerglings instead. You can't do a bigger push without putting yourself behind, but that's the nature of zerg.

04/25/2012 02:38 AMPosted by Noxious

That is one of the reasons people think Roaches and Hydralisks should swap tiers (with the appropriate nerf/buffs). Hydralisks can then assume the role off fending off multiple harassment options, like the Stalker.

Hydras wouldn't work against hellions because they're light. If you look at Protoss/Zerg's responses to Terran pressure options, to be fully safe you need Stalkers + an Observer or Roaches and some spore crawlers. It's still 2 units each.

04/25/2012 09:04 AMPosted by Apharion

I personally think it can be done and the increased DPS can create pretty interesting strategies. and perhaps allow the zerg to have more options rather than needing to early expand to stay competitive mid game.

Zerg is cost inefficient in general by design. The point of Zerg is to try and be everywhere with huge numbers of units and more bases fits that. I don't see why Zerg should be modified to be able to keep up on even base count.

04/25/2012 09:34 AMPosted by Greydancer

Speaking of queens, I believe a good player usually leave no energy on their queens because of efficient injections and creep spread. So most of the time they got finished quickly without transfusion. And the bad thing is you can't rapidly replenish them like other larva units. So let's say you have 4-5 queens with little energy and 4 or 5 phoenix come it usually means death because the queens are all scattered and got picked off one by one. Queens are really good against voids though - they are better than hydras if you just try them out.

That's not true, with dedicated creep spread queens there's a minimum number of tumors needed for maximum efficiency (2 per region) and once that's been started you can bank energy on the queens for transfuse.

04/25/2012 05:38 PMPosted by SiopaoAsado

Also, no other race (but Zerg) requires you to spread peanut butter allover the map just to make your units walk faster =D

No other race lets you get units so ridiculously fast that they can outrun charging zealots with their normal movement on creep. Creep spread is a bonus because you can, not a disadvantage because you have to. That's like complaining about protoss shield regen because now I have to micro to take advantage of it.

04/25/2012 08:41 PMPosted by ArtVandelay

The hydra is a niche unit, as compared to being a staple unit from Broodwar. This is the same as the reaper, same as the dark templar, get over the nostalgic hissy fits and move on.

I agree. Hydra doesn't need a buff IMO, it serves one purpose really well which is extremely effective anti-air. It is much more effective than a marine against air as well because it's attack is negated less by armor so it does more DPS per supply.

Most of the time, I usually run out of patience and drone-hard/expand. Then my OL sees hellions coming/getting made...oops! not enough time to make units =D Dead Siopao!

Other times, I feel he is mining too much gas so I make units to repel. But when my OL get's there, its then I just see that it's just a noob player who mined gas for the kicks of it...he is actually turtling/expand =D At that point I spent too much resource on army, my expos get delayed. Dead Siopao!

See what I mean here?? Terran can safely 1base. Protoss can safely expand earlygame (forge-fast expand is really effective against zerg...I urge protoss players to use it). But Zerg...early and midgame there are always risks when expanding...and not just risks because we are noobs but deadly ones (like drops/banshees/phoenixharrass/voids) because we cannot see them fast enough.

If he's taking early gas then FEing (common randomness in Gold and under) then you should win just by doing your own build right. He's put a self-imposed significant disadvantage and he should lose if you just play standard. Likewise, if he stays one base then he loses if he doesn't all-in. The issue by the sounds of it is that you don't know proper timings so you can't be ready for attacks. Learn them, it becomes much easier.

04/26/2012 02:01 AMPosted by Gaffer

People saying that the Hydralisk is a niche unit, as are others. There is the Battlecruiser, Carrier, Reaper, perahaps the Raven and Ultralisk. They are very situational, but units like the Battlecruiser, Carrier and Hydralisk out right suck at doing a good job cost efficiently.

What do you think the role of hydras is?

04/26/2012 02:01 AMPosted by Gaffer

Hydralisks do need a fix, but should not be cut. I cannot stress enough how I hate units being cut in expansions

When did anyone say hydras were getting cut in HotS? Last I heard they were getting a speed upgrade so they're more viable.

04/26/2012 02:01 AMPosted by Gaffer

I like the Hydralisk as a glass cannon, but it can't even escape a battle. They are just down-right cost-inefficient. Many other Zerg units can do just as good if not slightly worse than the Hydralisk but cost less or are easier massed.

That's the entire meaning of glass cannon. If they were high DPS but fast and could easily escape like Banshees, they wouldn't be glass cannons, they would be strong harass units.