Topic
New Suggestion for Hydralisks
Carriers? What role is it that Zergs need fulfilled in the midgame which isn't? The big gap which I think people would notice is that if they hydra was removed then sky protoss would become entirely viable. Corruptors can be sniped by stalkers with relative ease, and other than hydras there is no real counter for zerg to mass void ray/phoenix. |
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Guys, at least hydras are actually used, unlike BCs, ravens and carriers.
When was the last time u saw a raven or a bc in a pro game or in any mid to high level game tbh. Don't say tvt cause lets face it you can do pretty much anything in tvt... except for mass raven :( |
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They're Niche units... I hate the assumption that each of them has to be used a lot.
People use what they are comfortable with. As people innovate, and show what these units can do, they'll be more attractive. Commerce 101. |
well only whitera can pull of carriers tbh. Do you have the link to where ravens were somewhat useful?
I never said that they had to be used a lot :L They are no where near as good as well as useful as their protoss and zerg t3 counterparts |
I don't have the link, I just remember a match last season between two terrans, the raven was actually used to execute a well timed one base push, and without its auto turrets, the push would have failed horribly (hence being useful) |
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I take acception to people saying that sc2 needs to be more micro intensive. This game has a decent balance between stratagy and multitasking. Someone with poor multitasking and but better strategy/decisions like myself, should be able to sit on an even par with people who have an easier time multitasking (or just plain faster fingers) but can't think to save themselves. I agree that increasing the microability of the hdyra would likely be the better fix, along with whatever slight statistical balances might be required. But don't complain about the BW/SC2 micro differences. Much of that micro requirement came from the !@#$ AI. If Blizz released AI like that today they would be shot. It's enough that the pathing is still an issue in many situations (all of zergs units still require microing for proper effectiveness, some more than others. Whether they require more or less than other races is entirely situational). Consider also that the lower requirements for microing/macroing , is what makes this game so popular. If SC2 was as difficult as SC1, it would be half was popular.
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That's a pretty bold (and probably inaccurate) claim. |
No it came from units having the ability for a moving shot, or at least a gliding shot. In Sc2, many units stand still and perform the action, and stand still some more... |
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It came from a lot of things, not just overcoming bad AI (dragoons).
The game 'compensates' for things that had to be done manually - SC2 has autosurround rather than requiring the player to move melee units in proper flanks. SC2 units frequently cannot perform moving shots (hellions) or don't require micro to do them (Phoenixes). There are a lot more micro-disabling abilities (fungal, conc shell, forcefield). There are more units that do not require micro or are nearly impossible to do any with (broodlords, colossi, SC2 carrier - compare to BW carriers). The game design itself has cut off a lot of avenues for micro, but has concentrated them in some areas - bio units in particular have a much shorter attack time and thus stutterstepping is far more impressive. |
Guys, at least hydras are actually used, unlike BCs, ravens and carriers. Ravens are the bane of my existence and I see them in at least 10% of the PvTs I play.
The problem is that there are only really two units that can be microed to a great degree: marines/marauders and (blink) stalkers. What if I want to win a battle with better control? |
Gaffer... don't bring up 'lore logic' or physics as a reason of justification... well if you are going to, at least don't have false assumptions or extend a hyper realism. For future reference, Hydralisks always shot Needle Spines. Except in SC1 a bit of green stuff would come out of their flaps when the Needles were shot (it doesn't say anything about green stuff on the SC wiki however). After thinking a bit, I do have to agree that having the Needle pierce through many enemies at once (basically giving the Hydralisk linear splash damage) would be pretty cool and would make sense. It would give Hydralisks a real reason to be microed and will probably make go harassment options in ZvZ. I'll elaborate (and this is just theorycrafting here); Hydralisks will be able to move really fast at the enemy's base because there will be creep everywhere. This speed makes them able to get in and run around the base much like the Hellion. It can also do lots of damage to Drones very quickly, more so than Hellions, if you get the right angle. Their high DPS can already shred Drones anyway, so this will make them very powerful. Queens won't be a problem as you can just kite them all day. The only change you'd need after this is just something to make them easier to micro (otherwise this advantage won't be taken very well) and perhaps a speed upgrade off creep (like what Blizzard is suggesting for HotS). Or just one of the two. |
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Edited by Gaffer on 4/23/12 1:47 PM (PDT)
Oooohhhh!!! So many suggestions for improving the Hydralisks. And the community just can't agree on anything! I think Blizzard will have to decide on their own.
EDIT: Oh wait, isn't that what they always do? |
I guess ur talking about 111 all ins =D but it's not exactly mainstream ( at least 10% as u said) play seeing it's very ez to scout. On the other hand you see hydras at least 60% of PvZs. |
That would just look silly.
111 all in isn't just one build, it's this myriad of different timings from the 7-11 minute mark, all of which can only be scouted with an observer, so you can't know until 8 minutes specifically what they're going for. Sure, you can see gas on 14 and no expo, but that could be any all-in until about 7 minutes in and either way you have to prepare for a 111. If I'm up against a terran taking gas before expanding, I have to get a robo unless I see marauders, which forces me into robo tech. It's all do-able, but it's hardly easy to hold off. Hydras in 60% of PvZs? Since when? I virtually never see hydras unless it's in response to 2 stargate voidray. |
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Edited by abcroy on 4/24/12 3:49 AM (PDT)
These are my ideas for the hydralisk:
1. maybe if they change the roach to hydra cost and hydra to roach cost but nerfed and buffed accordingly, as this would not only give us our classic hydra from sc1 back but would give zerg early anti-air which we need so badly. 2. another idea might be to give hydra the plus 1 starting range and give it 100 health, this would give it more survivability and more desirable to put into massive deathballs. 3. they could make it a very fast but fragile raider type unit the speed would make up for the low health by allowing it to get away at a moments notice, maybe a speed of 3.25 to start with upgraded to 4 with an upgrade that costs 100/100. But one things for sure, I wouldn't say it is up, but its just not fast enough to keep up in anything but a roach hydra deathball which is pretty out dated now, and dosent have good enough range to stay right at the back which puts it into harms way of splash (most notably siege tanks). So I want to make one more suggestion to go with 1, and 3 plus its current state. I think they should make the units model size a bit smaller, this would help complement its range for obvious reasons and also because when they are alone unless they have a massive unit advandage they get picked off one by one vs most any ranged unit as they cant get into range and if you try to stutter step so they are all into range??? well try it yourself it wont end well. edit: the idea of the linear splash from the spines makes much sense, because in the intro on the sc2 site for the hydra it kept mentioning how they were armour piercing spines. however I think that it would make more sence to make them either ignore enemy armour points or ignore maybe up to 2 or 3, maybe add an upgrade to change from -2 enemy armour to - 100%. I also think this would couple nicely with my suggestion number 2. |
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OH!!! on last thing.
I think that they should have ther damage changed to 12(15 armoured) if they dont change anything else liek speed or range, if thy take the plus one range then that would also be ok maybe? If they went for my suggestion number 1, then, 9 damage(12 vs armoured), for suggestion 2 then probably 12(15 armoured), and for suggestion 3 maybe have 12 damage(15 or more vs light), as this makes much sense for harrase couple with the linear splash as this would desimate marine, zealot, lings, workers, mutas, all the units that are fast and would be the targets that are fast and the hydra previously had trouble with on its own(except workers and mutas but they often would run around them to minerals). However I think one is my favourite for many reasons, like early anti, especially for zvz and zvt, zerg ned a reliable bread and butter unit that dosent have to run away every time the enemy groups up, also many other reasons. So pleae tell me what you think about suggestion one mostly? |
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Actually, new idea that might help in microing Hydralisks! When they attack, the enemy is stunned for like 1/4 of a second. It may seem small but it gives Hydralisks the upper edge because they can move before the enemy can fire again. Combined with them starting with range 6, not 5, yet still having Grooved Spines (and maybe the speed upgrade), Hydralisks would become so useful!
Also the suppy they use so needs to bumped back down to 1. I thought zerg was "strength in numbers." If its not that, then all I can think of is "Queen Knitting Club." |
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Lets not forget: Hydra isn't underpowered, it is underused.
Gaffer: You do need to note that having them cost 1 supply effectively lowers their cost by 25 minerals each. Roy: Zerg doesn't have an issue with poor anti air in the early game. Especially since spore crawler burrow speed buff. Similarly, they definitely should not swap with the roach. There is no need, Roaches are armoured and can't hit air. If you put hydra in, the rush-ability and defence ability of zerg increases way too much. and your 3 basically just describes hellion that costs gas but can shoot air... esp if you combine with my splash/cone damage. |
Lets not forget: Hydra isn't underpowered, it is underused. Can't a nyone agree with any idea? I feel like we're going no where with trying to make the Hydralisk more viable. |
