Topic
SC2 Upgrade maths and game mechanics FAQ
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Edited by ACTIVILLAIN on 9/7/10 1:57 PM (UTC)
Here I will provide a breakdown of all the important maths focused on upgrades and combat.
Say you keep asking yourself: "Should I upgrade weapons or armor first?" "Is it worth my 100 gas to get combat shields?" "Does it make a difference if I spend my money upgrading? or should I just get more units?" Take a look here, maybe you will find answers to those questions. Hopefully if the blues find this useful they will sticky this so it wont get lost with all the other threads [: I will try to keep this updated with each patch Let me know what kind of things you would like to see here! 0. General 1. ZvT 2. ZvP 3. PvT 4. ZvZ 5. TvT 6. PvP 0. General: - Each worker on a mineral field will provide an income of 40 minerals per minute. However the 3rd worker on the mineral patch will only provide +20 minerals per minute and the fourth will make almost no difference to your income. Q: How does armor work? Is it the same as Warcraft III? A: No, armor is a static value in Starcraft II. For example a roach with 1 armor takes 1 less damage from all attacks. So a marine which does normally 6 damage, will only do 5 damage to a roach. A Seige tank that normally does 50 damage, will only do 49 damage to the roach. Q: How does armor work when I have more armor than a units damage? A: Units in Starcraft cannot do zero damage, the minimum is 0.5. For example if I had a fully upgraded ultralisk with a total of 6 armor and an un-upgraded marine fires at it. The first shot does 0 damage and the second shot will do 1 damage. So if the ultralisk has 500 hp, it will take theoretically 1000 shots for a basic marine to kill it assuming the ultralisk does not regenerate health. Q: How does Protoss shield regeneration work? A: Protoss shields no longer regenerate in combat. They only regenerate 8 seconds after they have not taken any damage. Once they are out of combat, most protoss units regenerate their shields at around ~2 shields per second approximately. Q: How does Zerg regeneration work? A: Most zerg units regenerate at around ~1 hp/per 3.5 seconds. Certain units such as the roach regenerate faster than this. A roach regenerates ~5hp/per second underground (and more with the tunneling claw upgrade). This regeneration happens ALL the time even while they are in combat. Q: If I upgrade armor, does it improve my Protoss shield? A: No, armor values only reduce incoming damage to Protoss units life totals. Shields will still take full damage unless you have the Protoss Plasma shield upgrade. Many Protoss players will choose to upgrade armor over shields simply because a majority of Protoss units have a larger life total than shields. With the exception of Dark Templar and Archons heavy builds, it is almost always a more effective choice to get armor upgrades over shields. Q: How does the Protoss plasma shield upgrade work? A: Similar to armor. Say you have a probe and you upgraded the Protoss plasma shield. A marine that normally does 6 damage will only do 5 damage to the probes shields. However once the shields are depleted on the probe, it will take the full 6 damage from the marine unless it also has Protoss ground armor upgrades. Q: How does mutalisk bounce damage work? A: Each bounce does 33% of the last ones damage. Vanilla mutalisk: 9-3-1 Fully upgraded: 12-4-2 Q: What is critical mass? A: A student once asked Confucious, "How do I get good with Terran?". Confucious replied, make enough tanks so that everything dies in 1 volley. Essentially critical mass is a number of long ranged units grouped up so that melee or short ranged units usually all die before they can get close enough to deal damage. For example against a ball of marines and marauders, if I had 5 collosi, and they each fired a laser sweep they would deal a total of 150 damage - enough to incinerate marines and marauders alike. Most Terran players would agree that once they see 5 collosi their infantry are essentially worthless against the collosi ball. The critical mass of collosi against terran infantry is thus 5 (less with upgrades). Q: How do I counter critical mass? A: 1. Get your own ball of dangerous ranged units. Counter critical mass with your own critical mass but micro yours better (this happens alot in TvT where you see tank stand-offs) 2. Do a complete tech switch to a unit the long ranged unit cannot hit. ie, against a critical mass of seige tanks, you might drop 5 stargates and start massing void rays. 3. Overwhelming AOE damage - Psionic storm, hunter seeker missile and fungal growth, ultralisk drops, baneling mines, tactical nukes all extremely effective against grouped up units |
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Edited by ACTIVILLAIN on 9/25/10 9:10 PM (UTC)
Q:Can I have your babies and your replays?
A: Certainly, here is a link http://sea.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/48835550 1. ZvT #Please note zerg units regenerate health at APPROXIMTAELY ~1hp/3.5 seconds A zergling takes 9 hits to kill a marine with no upgrades. A zergling takes 11 hits to kill a marine with combat shield A zergling takes 12 hits to kill a marine with +1 armor A zerglign takes 14 hits to kill a marine with combat shields and +1 armor - If given the choice, researching +1 armor is more favorable for Marine vs Zergling than combat shields in terms of survivability. A zergling normally takes 9 hits to kill a marine A zergling with +1 weapons kills a marine in 8 hits A zergling normally can take 6-7 shots from a single marine before dying (remember zerglings regenerate health) A zergling with +1 armor can take 8 shots from a single marine A zergling can take 5-6 shots from a marine with +1 weapons - Infantry weapons only slightly increases marine effectiveness vs Zergling (they still take a similar amount of attacks to kill) A roach with no upgrades can take 8 shots from a marauder before dying (5-7 damage overkill) A roach with +1 armor can take 9 shots from a marauder before dying (15-17 damage overkill) A roach with no upgrades can tank 30-31 shots from marines (including regeneration, 29 IF the roach did not regenerate ie 30 marines attacked it at once) A roach with +1 armor upgrades can tank 37-38 shots from marines A roach with no upgrades can tank 25 shots from marines with +1 weapons A roach can tank 3 seige tank blasts before dying (2 damage overkill) A roach with +1 armor can tank 4 seige tank blasts before dying (47 damage overkill) - Carapace makes a huge difference against infantry and seige tanks. A roach takes 3 hits to kill a marine (3 damage overkill) A marine with +2 armor upgrades will take 4 roach hits to kill A marine with combat shields will take 4 roach hits to kill A marine with combat shields and +3 armor will take 5 roach hits to kill Fun fact: A burrowed roach with tunneling claws regenerates life faster than a stim-packed marine can deal damage to it. A roach with +0/+1 weapons takes 4 hits to kill a marine with combat shield A roach with with +2 weapons can kill a marine with combat shields in 3 hits A roach takes 9 hits to kill a marauder (10 damage overkill) A roach with +1 weapons kills a marauder in 8 hits (11 damage overkill) - In roach vs infantry combat, weapon upgrades provide only a small combat bonus. Most of the time it is better to get carapace. It takes 5 mutalisks to instantly kill an SCV It takes 6 mutalisks to intsantly kill an SCV with +1 armor It still takes 5 mutalisks to instantly kill an SCV even with +1 weapons on mutalisk - Weapon upgrades on mutalisks provide little gain in terms of worker harassment A thor has 400 hp and 1 base armor It takes 100 Zergling hits to kill a thor (so if you have 10 zerglings, it will take 10 hits per zergling) A thor with +1 armor means it will take 134 zergling hits (34% increase in survivability) A thor with +2 armor means it will take 200 zergling hits (100% increase in survivability) Zerglings with +1 weapons can take down a thor in 80 hits Zerglings with +2 weapons can take down a thor in 67 hits - As you can see, armor upgrades help thors alot more if you are against zerglings. Vikings take 7 shots to take down a mutalisk Vikings with +1 weapons take 6 shots to take down a mutalisk A single mutalisk takes 14 hits to kill a viking (less if the viking gets hit by bouncing glaives) A mutalisk with +1 weapons can kill a viking in 13 hits 1.1: Zerglings with +1 carapace can survive a seige mode blast with 1 hp remaining Hydralisks can take 3 seige mode blasts Seige tanks with +2 vehicle weapons kill hydralisks in 2 seige mode blasts |
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Edited by ACTIVILLAIN on 11/19/10 2:04 AM (UTC)
2. ZvP A zealot takes 3 hits to kill a Zergling A zealot with +1 weapons takes 2 hits to kill a Zergling Further weapon upgrades make no difference in Zealot vs Zergling combat unless the Zerg player upgrades carapace - Remember zerg players, its important you upgrade carapace to counteract this or else you will see your zerglings melt to zealots Zerglings kill zealots in 35 hits Zerglings with +1 weapons kill zealots in 29 hits Zerglings kill zealots with +1 protoss armor in 44 hits Zerglings with +3 armor can tank 4 hits from a zealot It takes 5 mutalisks to 1 shot a probe It takes 4 mutalisks with +1 weapons to 1 shot a probe. - Against protoss, +1 flier attacks reduces the number of mutalisks you need to effectively harass the protoss workers. It takes a phoenix 7 volleys to kill a mutalisk It takes a phoenix with +1 weapons 6 volleys to kill a mutalisk Archons instantly 1 shot zerglings (35 damage to bio) Archons take 2 hits to kill zerglings with +1 carapace Any weapon upgrades on archon will counteract carapace - Showing just how effective carapace is Immortals will melt a roach in 3 shots Immortals will melt a roach with +1 armor in 4 shots Immortals with +1 weapons will counteract this - Once again the importance of zerg carapace Collosus with +2 weapons can instantly melt Zerglings. Zerglings with +2 carapace will counteract this and zerglings will take 2 hits to kill Collosus with +3 weapons will instantly melt zerglings regardless of carapace Stalkers take 13 shots to kill a single mutalisk (remember zerg regenerate) Stalkers with +1 weapons take 12 shots to kill a single mutalisk Mutalisk kill stalkers in 19 hits Mutalisk with +1 weapons kill stalkers in 17 hits - Some notable maths incase anyone is having trouble with mutalisks. Zealots take 6 hits to kill a hydralisk Zealots with +1 weapons take 5 hits to kill a hydralisk - Some say gateway units are weak against hydralisk however against smaller numbers of hydralisk, +1 weapon zealots with charge do extremely well. A Hydralisk will shred a stalker in 15 shots A hydralisk with +1 missile weapons will shred a stalker in 13 shots A Hydralisk will shred a stalker with +1 protoss armor in 15 shots - For stalker vs hydralisk combat armor upgrades arent as good as weapons A stalker will kill a hydralisk in 9 shots A stalker with +1 ground weapons will kill a hydralisk in 8 shots A stalker will kill a hydralisk with +1 carapace in 9 shots - Carapace for hydralisks against stalkers make minimal difference Fun Fact: Stalkers can blink out of fungal growth NO LONGER POSSIBLE 1.1.2 |
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Edited by ACTIVILLAIN on 9/25/10 9:12 PM (UTC)
3. PvT:
Zealots take 3 hits to kill a marine Zealots take 4 hits to kill a marine with combat shield Zealots take 4 hits to kill a marine with +1 armor Zealots take 4 hits to kill a marine with +1 armor and combat shields Zealots with +1 weapons still take 3 hits to kill a marine Zealots with +1 weapons still takes 4 hits to kill a marine with combat shields - weapons +1 against mass marine does virtually nothing for your zealots unless you are counteracting the armor, in most cases it is better to get protoss ground armor Zealots with +1 weapons will kill a marine that uses stimpack in 2 hits Zealots with +1 weapons will kill a marine with combat shields that uses stimpacks in 3 hits - However if the marine activates stimpacks, having +1 weapons on your zealots will mince them much faster. Immortals take 3 shots to kill a marauder Immortals take 3 shots to kill a marauder using stimpacks Immortals with +1 weapons takes 2 shots to kill a marauder using stimpacks - Alot of protoss seem to have an issue with marauders, try +1 weapons with immortals. It takes 29 shots for a marine to kill a zealot It takes 34 shots for a marine to kill a zealot with +1 armor It takes 47 shots for a marine to kill a zealot under the cover of guardian shield It takes 63 shots for a marine to kill a zealot with +1 armor under the cover of guardian shield FUN FACT: It takes 250 shots for a marine to kill a zealot with +3 armor, +3 plasma shields under the cover of guardian shield. - An alternative to templars/collosus to counter marines? think about it. Showing just how important infantry weapons are to terran players to counteract guardian shield and armor upgrades. Archons take 2 hits to kill a marine Archons instantly fry marines that activate stimpack Archons take 2 hits to fry a marine with +1 infantry armor that activates stimpacks Archons take 2 hits to fry a marine with combat shields that activates stimpacks - Beware of the Archon Marauders take 9 shots to take down a stalker Marauders with +1 weapons take 8 shots to take down a stalker Stalkers take 10 shots to kill a marauder Stalkers with +1 weapons take 9 shots to kill a marauder - Amazing what a little upgrade can do for you Dark Templars instantly shred and SCV in 1 hit Dark Templars take 2 hits to shred and SCV with +1 infantry armor - Wow spending 100/100 can halve a Dark Templars SCV killing potential! 1.1: Seige tanks take 5 shots to kill a zealot Seige tanks with +1 weapons take 5 shots to incinerate a zealot (the fourth shot leaves the zealot alive with 1 hp) - Ouch? Maruaders take 17 shots to kill a zealot (ALMOST twice as much as a stalker) Marauders take 18 shots to kill a zealot with +1 armor Marauders with +1 weapons take 15 shots to kill a zealot - Protoss players having trouble with marauders don't counter them with pure stalker or pure zealot as zealots get kited while stalkers aren't cost efficient. As you can see zealots can eat alot more punisher grenades before dying. Try to put zealots infront while your stalkers take pot shots at marauders. Upgrades help alot too. |
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Edited by ACTIVILLAIN on 8/30/10 7:08 AM (UTC)
4. ZvZ
A baneling instantly melts zerglings around it A zergling with +1 carapace survives a baneling blast with 1hp - If you can manage to get a carapace upgrade in ZvZ it will swing well in your favor as it now takes 2 banelings to kill a single zergling. It takes 8 banelings to kill a roach It takes 9 banelings to kill a roach with +1 carapace - If you see roaches dont run your banelings at them. Your wasting alot of resources. A roach kills another roach in 10 hits A roach with +1 missile weapons kills another roach in 9 hits A roach kills a roach with +1 carapace in 11 hits It takes 5 mutalisk to one shot a drone It takes 4 mutalisk with +1 weapons to one shot a drone - Same case with Z v P A roach will kill a zergling in 3 attacks A roach with +1 missile weapons will kill a zergling in 2 attacks - Similar case with Zealot vs Zergling A zergling takes 37-38 hits to kill a roach A zergling takes 49-50 hits to kill a roach with +1 carapace A zergling with +1 melee weapons takes 30 hits to kill a roach - Tough stuff Fungal growth leaves zerglings alive with 1 hp (because they regnerate) A hydralisk kills another hydralisk in 7 hits. A hydralisk with +1 missile weapons still kills another hydralisk in 7 hits A hydralisk kills another hydralisk with +1 carapace in 8 hits. - In hydralisk combat, you can see only carapace really makes a difference here A hydralisk kills a mutalisk in 11 shots A hydralisk with +1 missile weapons kills a mutalisk in 10 shots A mutalisk kills a hydralisk in 9 shots A mutalisk with +1 weapons still kills a hydralisk in 9 shots - Same case, weapon upgrade for mutalisk vs hydra makes minimal difference Mutalisks kill other mutalisks in 14 shots Mutalisks with +1 weapons kill other mutalisks in 13 shots Mutalisks kill other mutalisks with +1 armor in 16 shots |
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Edited by ACTIVILLAIN on 9/27/10 12:46 PM (UTC)
5. TvT
Patch 1.1 A seige tank in seige mode takes 2 shots to incinerate a marine No amount of vehicle upgrades will make marines get 1 shotted. No amount of infantry armor upgrades will make marines get 3 shotted - Patch 1.1 promises to change marine vs tank metagame A seige tank kills another seige tank in 4 shots A seige tank with +1 weapons blows up another seige tank in 3 shots A seige tank with +1 weapons blows up another seige tank with +1 armor in 4 shots Vehicle upgrades +2 will make seige tanks kill other seige tanks in 3 shots regardless of armor - Vehicle weapons is a CRUCIAL upgrade especially in TvT Vikings take 5 volleys to kill another Viking Vikings with +1 weapons take 5 volleys to kill another viking Vikings take 5 volleys to kill another viking with +1 armor - Aerial upgrades makes very little difference in viking to viking combat, most of the time its a waste of gas. Unless you can get to +2 upgrades Marauders take 9 shots to kill a seige tank Marauders with +1 weapons take 8 shots to kill a seige tank Marauders with +1 weapons still take 8 shots to kill a seige tank with +1 armor - Some players like the use of marauders in TvT. This is showing you just how powerful 1 upgrade is A banshee kills a marine in 2 shots. A banshee kills a marine with combat shields in 3 shots A banshee kills a marine with +1 armor in 3 shots A banshee kills a marine with combat shields AND +1 armor in 3 shots A banshee with +1 weapons will still kill a marine with combat shields in 3 shots A banshee kills a seige tank in 8 shots A banshee with +1 weapons takes out a seige tank in 7 shots - Some banshee numbers, they are used in TvT quite a bit as well Marauders take 5 shots to kill a marine Marauders still take 5 shots to kill a marine with +1 armor Marauders with +1 weapons still takes 5 shots to kill a marine - As you can see weapon upgrades don't help your marauders much if your facing heavy marine. Although most of the time in TvT its the seige tanks you are worried about A marine takes 25 shots to kill a marauder A marine takes 32 shots to kill a marauder with +1 armor A marine with +1 weapons takes 21 shots to kill a marauder A marine takes 8 shots to kill another marine A marine takes 9 shots to kill a marine with +1 armor A marine takes 7 shots with +1 weapons to kill another marine A marine takes 10 shots to kill a marine with combat shield A marine takes 8 shots with +1 weapons to kill another marine with combat shields A marine takes 11 shots to kill a marine with combat shields and +1 armor - Marine vs marine combat is only seen early game TvT and late game TvT when both players are out of gas |
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Edited by ACTIVILLAIN on 8/30/10 10:45 AM (UTC)
6. PvP
Zealots will kill another zealot in 11 hits Zealots with +1 weapons will kill another zealot in 10 hits Zealots will kill another zealot with +1 armor in 12 hits A stalker takes 17 shots to kill a zealot A stalker with +1 weapons takes 15 shots to kill a zealot A stalker takes 18 shots to kill a zealot with +1 armor - In PvP most players tend to opt for weapon damage. Also note once stalkers get to a critical mass of 17 or 15 with weapon upgrades, zealots are pretty much worthless as they get one-shotted. Stalkers kill other stalkers in 13 shots Stalkers with +1 weapons kill other stalkers in 12 shots Stalkers kill other stalkers with +1 armor in 13 shots - Ze armor it does nuthsing! A stalker will destroy an immortal in 10 + 16 shots A stalker with +1 weapons will destroy an immortal in 10 + 15 shots A stalker will kill an immortal with +1 armor in 10 + 17 shots Immortals kill other immortals in 10 + 5 shots Immortals with +1 weapons kills other immortals in 10 + 4 shots Immortals break stalkers in 4 blasts Immortals with +1 weapons break stalkers in 4 blasts Immortals with +2 weapons break stalkers in 3 blasts - Hardened shields will absorb 10 immortal shots It takes 6 collosi to vaporize a stalker instantly It takes 5 collosi with +1 weapons to vaporize a stalker instantly It takes 6 collosus to melt a zealot It takes 5 collosus with +1 weapons to melt a zealot - Against protoss the normal critical mass for collosi is 6, but if you have weapons +1, this number is down to 5. Think about it - 100/100 upgrade at forge is essentially "gives" you a 6th collosus (300/200) pretty good value right? Immortals take 8 shots to break a collosus Immortals with +1 weapons take 7 shots to break a collosus ENJOY! Please share any feedback with what you would like me to include. I will work on it and get around to it eventually. |
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I will update this tomororw I have to go and do night shift!
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Updated PvT section, ENJOY!
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It would be nice to see some about hydralisk
Also it would be nice to see something like, for example... hydralisk does 12 damage and has a atkspd of 0.86 so it takes 4 shots on a 0 armor no combat shield marine and it takes 0.86x4 = 3.44 seconds -with combat shield, 5 shots and 4.3 seconds - +1 armor on marine is also 5 shots and 4.3 seconds - +1 armor and combat shield takes 5 shots and 4.3 seconds - +2 armor and combat shield takes 6 shots and 5.12 - +3 armor and combat shield takes 7 shots 6.02 marine does 6 dmg and has an atkspd of 0.86 and takes 7 shots to kill a hydralisk(i think it has 0 armor) which is 6.02 seconds siege tanks do 15+10 dmg to armored with an atkspd of 1.04 and in siege mode it has 50 dmg and with an atkspd of 3. It takes 7 shots to kill a roach in normal mode and 3 in siege mode because a roach has 145 hp. -it takes 7.28 seconds for a siege tank to kill a roach in normal mode and 9 seconds in siege mode. -with +2 upgrade in normal mode it takes 6 shots and 6.24 seconds and in siege mode it still takes 9 seconds - +3 weapons makes no difference -If a roach has +1 armor it takes 4 shots in siege mode if the tank is +0 and 7 shots in normal A roach does 15 dmg to siege tanks and takes 11 shots to kill one and has an atkspd of 2 which is 22 seconds to kill a siege tank Don't take on a siege tank with roaches.. This is not considering regen just an example.. |
It would be nice to see some about hydralisk What I am doing here is showing you what sort of effects upgrades will have. Alot of players are underestimating the armor upgrade and I would like to prove otherwise. Yes I will include some details with hydralisks, but I try to keep the maths matchup related. Hydralisks are mostly a ZvP and in some cases a ZvZ unit. Hydralisks are rarely seen in ZvT at this current metagame. |
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Much love for this thread, you get my official seal of approval.
Possible to add time to kill (dps)??? Whilst a stalker takes less shots to kill a hydra, hydra dps in insane and they shoot very quickly and take down stalkers. Thank you for what you have done already, this is why SEA rulz. |
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Edited by Rulke on 8/30/10 1:02 AM (UTC)
Much love for this thread, you get my official seal of approval. stalker has 80 hp and 80 shield. hydra has 80 hp stalker does 10 dmg to hydra and takes 9 shots and 12.96 seconds to kill a hydra hydra does 11 dmg to stalker (1 armor) and takes 15 shots and 12.9 seconds to kill a stalker however + 1 armor on stalkers will make the hydra have to shoot 17 times, 14.62 seconds and stalker needs +2 weapons to be able to kill a hydra any quicker providing the hydra has 0 armor still edit: some of that is a little off as i did not add shield upgrade and armor upgrade differently. Also I am not sure how protoss shields regen during combat if at all |
Remember the hydralisk regenerates. It actually takes 9 shots to kill a hydra as the hydralisk will regenerate at least 1hp while its being fired at. +1 protoss ground upgrade will kill it in 8 shots +2 protoss ground upgrade will kill it in 7 shots |
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Edited by Rulke on 8/30/10 1:09 AM (UTC)
What I am doing here is showing you what sort of effects upgrades will have. Alot of players are underestimating the armor upgrade and I would like to prove otherwise. I believe showing the time to kill is very relevant as unit A might take 10+ shots to kill off unit B but unit B takes only 5 shots but unit A attacks 3 times as fast as unit B. Therefore showing the upgrades doesn't help much if the upgraded unit can still kill off the other because it has faster dps |
